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13/08/2015 08:50:26

ukBertyMuvizu mogulExperimental user
ukBerty
Posts: 976
Neil wrote:

On it again.Gotcha!



Just playing with layers now I have a scene where characters are not stood on ground planes (you really do need to fix that one!).

When rendering out layers the background you are going to key out for your composite layers is very important. Could we have a drop down instead of the tick box for the background layer. The choices would be original/black/green/blue/red and then it would change the background appropriately (don't forget we want illuminated and no shadows on the background if poss).

What do you think ?
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13/08/2015 09:03:02

MrDrWho13Muvizu mogulExperimental user
MrDrWho13
Posts: 2221
ukBerty wrote:
Neil wrote:

On it again.Gotcha!



Just playing with layers now I have a scene where characters are not stood on ground planes (you really do need to fix that one!).

When rendering out layers the background you are going to key out for your composite layers is very important. Could we have a drop down instead of the tick box for the background layer. The choices would be original/black/green/blue/red and then it would change the background appropriately (don't forget we want illuminated and no shadows on the background if poss).

What do you think ?

What He Said
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13/08/2015 09:25:02

JamieExperimental userMuvizu staff
Jamie
Posts: 151
ukBerty wrote:

Could we have a drop down instead of the tick box for the background layer. The choices would be original/black/green/blue/red and then it would change the background appropriately (don't forget we want illuminated and no shadows on the background if poss).

What do you think ?



Would you not set that up using the environment favourites? That's where the list of original/black/green comes from isn't it? All the options you mention (illuminated and no shadows) are configurable for the sky and ground anyway.

If you are using render layers, you shouldn't really need to key anything out. A character rendered on layer 1 will have a transparent background and a arcade machine he is playing rendered on layer 2 will have a transparent background. So you can basically ignore the "background" layer and just composite layer 1 & 2 with another photo (of a arcade venue) without keying anything.

Or am I missing something?

Ton of Bricks
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13/08/2015 11:20:18

MrDrWho13Muvizu mogulExperimental user
MrDrWho13
Posts: 2221
Ah yes, of course. I hadn't realized it would be transparent.
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13/08/2015 11:58:10

ukBertyMuvizu mogulExperimental user
ukBerty
Posts: 976
I will have another go, but when I rendered out just my character layer the background was black so I had to key it out. That's why I suggested an easy way to change the background colour to make keying easier.

Transparent would be great, but that's not what I got. I used AVI uncompressed and HitFilm.

I'll have another play and use a couple of compositors tonight and see if it really is transparent.
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13/08/2015 12:29:44

NeilExperimental userMuvizu staff
Neil
Posts: 396
ukBerty wrote:
Transparent would be great, but that's not what I got. I used AVI uncompressed and HitFilm.

Would I be right in thinking you'll only get transparent with TGA output, rather than video?
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13/08/2015 12:30:58

MrDrWho13Muvizu mogulExperimental user
MrDrWho13
Posts: 2221
Neil wrote:
ukBerty wrote:
Transparent would be great, but that's not what I got. I used AVI uncompressed and HitFilm.

Would I be right in thinking you'll only get transparent with TGA output, rather than video?

If that's true then I think we might need those chroma key options in the render menu.
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13/08/2015 12:36:39

MrDrWho13Muvizu mogulExperimental user
MrDrWho13
Posts: 2221
I rendered this scene a couple of weeks ago in DX9; Now I'm rendering it with DX11 and it seems to have a much longer predicted time. Is there a significant difference in render times between the two or am I doing something wrong?

It's about 3 minutes of 1080p.

Edit: I've since aborted the render and realized that it's rendering the layers individually. Could we have an option to render as one layer without switching to DX9?
Update: Rendering in DX9 is much faster:

edited by MrDrWho13 on 13/08/2015
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13/08/2015 13:14:11

JamieExperimental userMuvizu staff
Jamie
Posts: 151
ukBerty wrote:
Transparent would be great, but that's not what I got. I used AVI uncompressed and HitFilm.



Ah-ha! ok, I hadn't realised you would be using layers and AVI. You will only get transparency with TGA sequence files.

My 2p is that there is more setup needed to achieve a green screen background than can fit on the output window, and also the background layer is the sky and ground (+anything else left on the background layer) so additional changes would need to be made to select what layer the sky and ground (if they are separate choice for the sky and another choice of layer for the background that could get confusing) are on as well as being able to duplicate the edit environment settings on the make video window.

I think TGA would give you the best quality output and avoid any artefacts around the edge of the key'd character/object. To get the best, quickest result I'd go for TGA sequences - and you'll avoid the 2GB file limit on AVIs as well.
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13/08/2015 13:42:22

ukBertyMuvizu mogulExperimental user
ukBerty
Posts: 976
Jamie1 wrote:
ukBerty wrote:
Transparent would be great, but that's not what I got. I used AVI uncompressed and HitFilm.


Ah-ha! ok, I hadn't realised you would be using layers and AVI. You will only get transparency with TGA sequence files.



I have been meaning to move to TGA for a while so this will push me into it. I can confirm that it all works as described with TGA - brilliant. Forget all the greenscreen request stuff - no need.

Two things though....

When I render layer 1 I also get a folder called "layer 0" with a load of TGA files that seem to be all black in there. Is there any need for this ? My "layer 1" folder is correct.
What does the "depth pass" check box do ?

Thanks

Berty

Thanks
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13/08/2015 13:51:54

JamieExperimental userMuvizu staff
Jamie
Posts: 151
ukBerty wrote:
When I render layer 1 I also get a folder called "layer 0" with a load of TGA files that seem to be all black in there. Is there any need for this ?


Layer 0 is actually the background layer, this should be renamed on the output...
Why is it black? My own tests just gave me a white/grey default sky/ground. If you send me your set file I'll take a look...unless you purposefully set the sky and the ground to black? Big Grin

ukBerty wrote:
What does the "depth pass" check box do ?


A depth pass lets you do some fancy stuff in comp/post process. I'm not all that familiar with HitFilm but in AfterEffects you can use it as the input data to effects. So, for example, you want to add Depth of Field effects later on this depth pass lets the effect know the depth of the scene to apply the effect. That's probably the most common use, but really its just data to tell another application how far away things are so you can use it as an input into other effects.
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13/08/2015 14:00:46

ukBertyMuvizu mogulExperimental user
ukBerty
Posts: 976
Jamie1 wrote:

Why is it black? My own tests just gave me a white/grey default sky/ground. If you send me your set file I'll take a look...unless you purposefully set the sky and the ground to black? Big Grin

It is black because my background was set to "no image". I have reset this to a background image and it's all as you say (of course).

I now see... Basically if you're using layers then forget AVI for multiple reasons. Just thinking how we stop the forum filling with numpties like me trying to use AVI and layers - could you put something on the render layers dialog saying "For better results with layers use TGA sequences" if they have selected AVI ?
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13/08/2015 14:05:46

JamieExperimental userMuvizu staff
Jamie
Posts: 151
MrDrWho13 wrote:
Could we have an option to render as one layer without switching to DX9?



You should be able to use the Render flag on the Show Layers window to dictate what layers are rendered. This way you can get one out at a time.

I have to ask though, if you've spent the time configuring what layers everything is on why would you then want to just render it as a flat video? Possibly as a preview render?
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13/08/2015 14:06:46

JamieExperimental userMuvizu staff
Jamie
Posts: 151
ukBerty wrote:
Just thinking how we stop the forum filling with numpties like me trying to use AVI and layers - could you put something on the render layers dialog saying "For better results with layers use TGA sequences" if they have selected AVI ?



I'm sure this is possible.
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13/08/2015 15:00:32

ukBertyMuvizu mogulExperimental user
ukBerty
Posts: 976
Jamie1 wrote:
I have to ask though, if you've spent the time configuring what layers everything is on why would you then want to just render it as a flat video? Possibly as a preview render?


As far I can see layers have two uses :-

  • To give the the ability to render out individual layers for use with composting
  • Hiding things in complex scenes so your PC becomes more usable


If your using them for the second reason then you may want to just render everything ??
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13/08/2015 16:06:29

JamieExperimental userMuvizu staff
Jamie
Posts: 151
ukBerty wrote:
If your using them for the second reason then you may want to just render everything ??



Fair point. I've never really considered them as an optimisation though, I kinda of see that as an excuse to cram more and more into a scene rather than try to properly optimise a scene.
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13/08/2015 16:09:31

MrDrWho13Muvizu mogulExperimental user
MrDrWho13
Posts: 2221
Jamie1 wrote:
ukBerty wrote:
If your using them for the second reason then you may want to just render everything ??



Fair point. I've never really considered them as an optimisation though, I kinda of see that as an excuse to cram more and more into a scene rather than try to properly optimise a scene.

I've been using them to optimize my scenes - I cram a lot of stuff in anyway
I also keep pumping out test renders because I can't get Muvizu to play back the scene as it would appear without lagging.
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13/08/2015 16:16:35

JamieExperimental userMuvizu staff
Jamie
Posts: 151
I put in a request with the dev team for a 'flat render' or 'preview render' (whatever you want to call it) option. I can really see the benefit of that for previews of your work.

If you use render layers to optimise your scene, I wouldn't be surprised if your scene suddenly crashes when you turn a random combination of really full layers (or all layers on at once). Just saying...
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14/08/2015 00:43:10

urbanlamb
urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1796
Jamie1 wrote:


If you use render layers to optimise your scene, I wouldn't be surprised if your scene suddenly crashes when you turn a random combination of really full layers (or all layers on at once). Just saying...



hehe this thought just came to mind and its not like you guys dont have a lot of work to do already but have you ever considered holding livestreamed workshops for muvizu users on stuff like say scene creation or storyboarding and stuff. You can use twitch or some such provider or google hangouts (although not a fan of the google ones) and since you put muvizu on steam twitch sounds like an appropriate venu.

anyhow back to the bugs i was just reading stuff while heating up the veggies for diner.
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16/08/2015 10:01:09

ukBertyMuvizu mogulExperimental user
ukBerty
Posts: 976
Just working with layers and can I just say how awesome they are..... It's a whole new world.....
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