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17/11/2016 21:22:26

ikesMuvizu mogul
ikes
Posts: 287
It's indeed true that I had no intention to sell items here that I downloaded free elsewhere. If that was the case I would have put a lot more of them in the store. The fact that I had put a price on it, was because I had spent a lot of time on it inserting interiors and insides of the cars, adjusted the materials and getting it in muvizu. Just because there are so few cars for muvizu.

This was written in a text file included with the models:

Usage License:

Use however you like, credit would be appreciated. Coments and criticism welcomed.

Well, I asumed I could re-edit them without infringement of any rights.
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17/11/2016 21:32:56

clayster2012Muvizu mogul
clayster2012
Posts: 651
urbanlamb wrote:
PatMarrNC wrote:
Here's why I think Clayster didn't fully understand the rules:

1) *I* didn't understand the rules either. I was on the verge of pushing the button on store items that were adapted from Sketchup models. I am a reasonably intelligent guy, and I did take the time to read thru Sketchup's licensing document. Frankly, I found it to be confusing. There were passages that seemed to imply one thing, followed by passages that seemed to imply the exact opposite. My thinking was influenced by the historical use of Sketchup models in Muvizu, and in retrospect I'm a little embarrassed to say that it didn't really occur to me that two identical sketchup items in the same store would be treated differently if one of them had a price tag.


2) I consider Ikes to be a genius. Whether or not that's technically true is a moot point, because he is clearly a smart man, not inclined to make irresponsible decisions. The fact that Ikes posted downloaded models in the store for sale tells me that its possible for a good man to get it wrong. There's no doubt in my mind that Ikes had no ill intent, which means he truly believed that it was OK to sell downloaded items, especially when he had taken the time to value-add additional features.

bottom line, I think its safe to say that this is a topic that lends itself to personal interpretation, which in the case of me, Ikes and Clayster, our interpretation was wrong.

I think it's a good thing to have a very visible clarification of the rules. Apparently it was overdue.

Unfortunately, I fear this incident will undermine the forum's comfort level. It takes a lot of work to get the people in a group feeling comfortable enough to feel like friends, and this has probably knocked the trust factor back quite a few notches. Any time an adjustment is necessary in a group environment, the group benefits when it is handled in a way that preserves everyone's dignity. This accomplished the needed goal but in a way that compromised the forum's goodwill far more than was necessary.

My 2 cents.




I will answer this because I think some people didnt understand but they behaved in a completely different way like Ikes.

the keywords in the skethcup TOS is "significantly modify" usually that means stick it in a picture or movie or something and make money off the movie etc etc. With sketchup however ...they also leave a grey area because people were sharing models on sketchup and adding them to other things and reupload them to sketchup like the giant google earth thing or whatevers.

Ultimately though things change the minute your putting a price tag on something..
you will also notice in their TOS it says the rules may change if they start to sell stuff on the site. All those words make alarm bells in my head.

At the end of the day though if your busy trying to decide if your allowed to resell a model on some website that you didnt pay for then you probable should stop right there

you can purchase licenses to resell things there are places that do that but you need to specifically look for resell rights. If you dont see anything talking about resell rights then the answer is no you can't resell it.

so in short if you dont see anything about being granted resell rights then no you can't sell a model as a model. (even if its free)


But what if the license does say resell and you show the creator or company the license, and they identify the license to be fake, and the person has been fraud, taken for a fool, are you still going to blame the person for buy a license and didn't know it was fake, can't you understand that a person Apologize for something that didn't mean to happen, I went through a lot explaining that To Unity, even emailed them the license, that's when i found out it was fake, and you say read everything, then go back and read everything I posted on that topic, either way if I'm wrong or I'm wright your getting your wish, I'm not planning on staying on this forum, and I never got your answer on how I was changing the story every 20 minutes when I was never on the forum when this first happen until now, unless your afraid to answer!
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17/11/2016 21:38:02

primaveranz
primaveranz
Posts: 524
Just out of interest, which website did you download them from? If not the Unity one?
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17/11/2016 22:12:39

fazz68
fazz68
(Account inactive)
Posts: 767
urbanlamb wrote:





I just have to add I am having trouble fathoming why someone would think its okay to just download a car or a house from a site where anyone else can get it for 0.00 if they had the url slap a cube in it for collision and hit export and then put a 3 dollar price tag on it.

Doesn't this bother anyone?

It sure bothers me.




exactly !!!! do you all think this is reasonable behavior from anyone. selling people stuff you got for FREE.... im glad i dont live in your bubble....
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17/11/2016 22:27:05

ikesMuvizu mogul
ikes
Posts: 287
fazz68 wrote:
urbanlamb wrote:





I just have to add I am having trouble fathoming why someone would think its okay to just download a car or a house from a site where anyone else can get it for 0.00 if they had the url slap a cube in it for collision and hit export and then put a 3 dollar price tag on it.

Doesn't this bother anyone?

It sure bothers me.




exactly !!!! do you all think this is reasonable behavior from anyone. selling people stuff you got for FREE.... im glad i dont live in your bubble....


Well, there is something to say about this. I think Clay also spent time on the models to get them in muvizu and that's also valuable work. It's not that you get very rich with it, because you mostly fill the vault of muvizu, since you only get a percentage of a sell.

Also there are a lot of users that don't have the skills to get a downloaded free model in muvizu. I believe they are glad other people make models available in muvizu they can buy for just a couple of buck's, which saves them the time the seller has spent on..
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17/11/2016 22:31:07

urbanlamb
urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1796
ikes wrote:
fazz68 wrote:
urbanlamb wrote:





I just have to add I am having trouble fathoming why someone would think its okay to just download a car or a house from a site where anyone else can get it for 0.00 if they had the url slap a cube in it for collision and hit export and then put a 3 dollar price tag on it.

Doesn't this bother anyone?

It sure bothers me.




exactly !!!! do you all think this is reasonable behavior from anyone. selling people stuff you got for FREE.... im glad i dont live in your bubble....


Well, there is something to say about this. I think Clay also spent time on the models to get them in muvizu and that's also valuable work. It's not that you get very rich with it, because you mostly fill the vault of muvizu, since you only get a percentage of a sell.

Also there are a lot of users that don't have the skills to get a downloaded free model in muvizu. I believe they are glad other people make models available in muvizu they can buy for just a couple of buck's, which saves them the time the seller has spent on..


what about the guy that gave it out for free in the first place what does he get for his labour?

I am satisfied its time for me to pull all my free stuff off this site. Either that or charge the earth for it..

Anyone want to buy a door for 3 bucks? http://muvizu.com/3D/31554/The-Door-to-the-cottage-Country-Cottage-part-

how about some trucks? http://muvizu.com/Set/48202/Free-Trucks

http://muvizu.com/Set/33733/Yooks-n-Zooks-Bomb-Shelter-Master-Set 10 bucks for this one

any takers?
edited by urbanlamb on 17/11/2016
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17/11/2016 22:33:50

ikesMuvizu mogul
ikes
Posts: 287
urbanlamb wrote:

what about the guy that gave it out for free in the first place what does he get for his labour?

I am satisfied its time for me to pull all my free stuff off this site. Either that or charge the earth for it..

Anyone want to buy a door for 3 bucks? http://muvizu.com/3D/31554/The-Door-to-the-cottage-Country-Cottage-part-

how about some trucks? http://muvizu.com/Set/48202/Free-Trucks

http://muvizu.com/Set/33733/Yooks-n-Zooks-Bomb-Shelter-Master-Set 10 bucks for this one

any takers?
edited by urbanlamb on 17/11/2016


Well, what do you get if you give it out for free?
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17/11/2016 22:35:33

urbanlamb
urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1796
ikes wrote:
urbanlamb wrote:

what about the guy that gave it out for free in the first place what does he get for his labour?

I am satisfied its time for me to pull all my free stuff off this site. Either that or charge the earth for it..

Anyone want to buy a door for 3 bucks? http://muvizu.com/3D/31554/The-Door-to-the-cottage-Country-Cottage-part-

how about some trucks? http://muvizu.com/Set/48202/Free-Trucks

http://muvizu.com/Set/33733/Yooks-n-Zooks-Bomb-Shelter-Master-Set 10 bucks for this one

any takers?
edited by urbanlamb on 17/11/2016


Well, what do you get if you give it out for free?


exactly ....

so if you take my door and go to say unity and slap it on unity site for 3 bucks what's my cut?
edited by urbanlamb on 17/11/2016
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17/11/2016 22:38:35

mindiflyth
mindiflyth
Posts: 79
Jeez, I was only away from the forum for like six hours and then I come back to find this big firestorm. I'm hoping Clayster can still release a low-poly city in some form because I think that's an excellent idea. And urbanlamb, please don't take all of your assets down! User-created assets like that greatly expand what this program can do.
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17/11/2016 22:46:44

ikesMuvizu mogul
ikes
Posts: 287
Well, I put up some free models, I don't get any cuts in the first place. No matter what the other does with it. If you want cuts for your work, then you shouldn't put it up for free in the first place. You do it because you don't want to keep it for yourself, but share it.

With digital models it's already something else then a phisical object. If you sell 1 or 100 of the same model you only spent time on once creating it, you already got your cut out of it multiple times. And it keeps coming in the more you sell of the same model without having to labor for it.
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17/11/2016 22:49:01

urbanlamb
urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1796
ikes wrote:
Well, I put up some free models, I don't get any cuts in the first place. No matter what the other does with it. If you want cuts for your work, then you shouldn't put it up for free in the first place. You do it because you don't want to keep it for yourself, but share it.

With digital models it's already something else then a phisical object. If you sell 1 or 100 of the same model you only spent time on once creating it, you already got your cut out of it multiple times. And it keeps coming in the more you sell of the same model without having to labor for it.



so you think the 60 seconds you spend putting a cube in a model someone spent days or possibly even weeks creating is worth more then the person asking nothing for it?


What happens to the value of a paid model if 2 million people are giving it out for free on the internet?

What about the rights of the person who created the model and his wishes?

Do you walk into a store say "hey i like this" and walk out without paying even if there is no price tag in the items

If you go buy an item in a store and the price tag has fallen off does that mean its free?


is it legal to rob donation bins on the street corner for clothes for poor people and resell them?
edited by urbanlamb on 17/11/2016
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17/11/2016 23:15:56

RodrisilvaMuvizu mogulExperimental user
Rodrisilva
Posts: 114
Guys

It's time to move on. You made your points. I believe that's a never ending discussion as are all discussions around profits and money.
Don't take those things to serious. As you all know every creation, artist or not, carries with it always some imitation. Humans live together and evolve because they mimic behaviour, ideas, movements, believes. Some guys think they are very different from others but they are wrong. They always use the same human templates. It's like an old story about a children who someone asked to draw a flower. The children drew an amount of unorganized lines. On the end someone said "this not a flower !". Really? For the very young children it was a flower. Lines were there. Idea was there. Believe was there. Only the body was not developed enough to achieve adult concept.
When are you able to say that's a copy of anything ?; when are you able to say this is original ? Who is able to create a color that never saw ?
Nobody !... we always copy in same way... some smart guys know how to copy without being noticed. They just seem different. Some we call them artists only because they know how to group lines in a way nobody knows.
Like the young children....

Sorry, be friends please.
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17/11/2016 23:22:51

urbanlamb
urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1796
Rodrisilva wrote:
Guys


Nobody !... we always copy in same way... some smart guys know how to copy without being noticed. They just seem different. Some we call them artists only because they know how to group lines in a way nobody knows.
Like the young children....

Sorry, be friends please.


This is not about coyping an idea or concept and putting your own labour into it and making it by yourself from scratch with your own two hands.

This is about taking an item someone made and calling it yours and selling it for money.

I dont care if you copy my ideas or whatever because they are not mine to start with ..
"all art is derivative"

However if you take my art and sell it as your own I might have something to say about it
edited by urbanlamb on 17/11/2016
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17/11/2016 23:22:52

ikesMuvizu mogul
ikes
Posts: 287
urbanlamb wrote:

so you think the 60 seconds you spend putting a cube in a model someone spent days or possibly even weeks creating is worth more then the person asking nothing for it?


What happens to the value of the paid model if 2 million people are giving it out for free on the internet?

What about the rights of the person who created the model and his wishes?

Do you walk into a store say "hey i like this" and walk out without paying even if there is no price tag in the items

If you go buy an item in a store and the price tag has fallen off does that mean its free?
edited by urbanlamb on 17/11/2016



If I give something away for free, the other can do with it what he wants, destroy it, paint it, sell it, or whatever he wants to do with it. I gave it away and I don't want anything in return, because if I do I ask for something in return.

I thought we were talking about selling a free model, not paid for models been given away for free.
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17/11/2016 23:28:19

urbanlamb
urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1796
ikes wrote:
urbanlamb wrote:

so you think the 60 seconds you spend putting a cube in a model someone spent days or possibly even weeks creating is worth more then the person asking nothing for it?


What happens to the value of the paid model if 2 million people are giving it out for free on the internet?

What about the rights of the person who created the model and his wishes?

Do you walk into a store say "hey i like this" and walk out without paying even if there is no price tag in the items

If you go buy an item in a store and the price tag has fallen off does that mean its free?
edited by urbanlamb on 17/11/2016



If I give something away for free, the other can do with it what he wants, destroy it, paint it, sell it, or whatever he wants to do with it. I gave it away and I don't want anything in return, because if I do I ask for something in return.

I thought we were talking about selling a free model, not paid for models been given away for free.




We are talking about both but it appears that everyone wants to rationalize their own bad habits, but that is fine.

it appears that the terms of the sites people put their stuff on mean nothing nor the wishes of the creator. Heck not even the terms of this site mean anything.


have at it at least everyone knows where they stand when the post models to this site and those on sites like unity who use the unity site and post assets FOR FREE have to be wary of the muvizu site as well.


Since the site that helps protect them from content theft EVEN IF THEY GIVE IT OUT FOR FREE means nothing to the users here!

mindiflyth wrote:
And urbanlamb, please don't take all of your assets down! User-created assets like that greatly expand what this program can do.


I hate to say it but i am glad this discussion has occured. Mostly because I know what people think about what the word "free" means on the internet.


Quite sad really.
edited by urbanlamb on 17/11/2016
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17/11/2016 23:48:26

PatMarrNCMuvizu mogul
PatMarrNC
Posts: 1742
What happens to the value of the paid model if 2 million people are giving it out for free on the internet?

this is a backwards argument for this situation. While it is true that giving away the work of someone who is trying to sell it elsewhere would undermine the income potential of the original author, we're talking about people who are content to make their work available for free. You can't really steal from somebody who is already giving it away.

And the original freebie is indeed available to everybody on the forum. Why would they pay for something they can get for free? Because it took work to get it into Muvizu, and they don't know how to do it.

Regarding the question of how much can you charge for 60 seconds to add a cube... that's kind of like the joke about the guy who solved a problem for a company and billed them $10,000 for one minute's work. When they challenged him, he replied that they were paying $1 for the time it took and $9,999 for the expertise to do it.

Expertise is a marketable commodity.
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17/11/2016 23:51:51

fazz68
fazz68
(Account inactive)
Posts: 767
hey pat i see you've been busy making assets for the muvizu community. Mmmm very nice models. i see you've put a lot of time and care into making them. im very impressed, nice one mate ohh and you're giving them away free too.... bonus... very generous of you. i know how long these things take to make... cool


yeah i err downloaded all the sets, extracted all the models.... ran them through 3dxchange to convert them into iclone assets... yeah i put them up for sale on the realusion market place £4 each.... ive sold loads... made a nice tidy pile...


yeah cheers mate thanks...

so i take it from most of the replies on this thread that that is an acceptable scenario....

total BS

ps... i havnt done any of that by the way.
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18/11/2016 00:00:15

urbanlamb
urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1796
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18/11/2016 00:06:42

PatMarrNCMuvizu mogul
PatMarrNC
Posts: 1742
This is really two different discussions. One group is arguing letter of the law, and they are right... the letter of the law is clearly compromised.

But my point from the beginning has been about the spirit of the law... whether the offense was with full knowledge or whether it was done in the belief that the license he paid for entitled him to make derivative works and sell them.

Here's a metaphor from my own experience. I was driving with my daughter, and she noticed I was speeding. The letter of the law has been broken. She gently said "dad... do you know you are speeding?"

I looked at the speedometer, realized I was speeding and slowed down. Problem solved, and no harm done.

But if she had taken out her cell phone and called the police and told them an old man in a white car was speeding and they should pull him over, I would have been outraged at her legalistic way of dealing with the problem.

That's pretty much the way this went down. Somebody noticed Clayster was speeding and they called the cops.

If the rules that are being presented now had been presented before, my opinion is that he would have changed his tactics. You may not agree with that, but you can't prove otherwise. And I think it's kind of messed up to push for the strongest penalty without any proof of intent.

The net result of this is that at least two good people have announced their departure from the forum. Maybe more before its all over. The trust of virtually everybody else is eroded. And none of this was necessary. The problem could have been addressed without collateral damage. We're shooting flies with shotguns and burning down houses to get rid of a mouse. C'mon people, we can do better than that.
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18/11/2016 00:21:41

urbanlamb
urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1796
T he law is there to cover the butts of people because a lot of people lack an appopriate set of ethics and morals,

translation "yes its okay to steal from the poor bin and resell the clothes because they were free" right? ....

actually .. no no its not, but unfortunately because there are people that want to profit off the goodwill of others some dudes had to get together to create a law about it.

That's why its illegal to shoot people in the face instead of just "wrong" and why we have court rooms and lawyers and jails. Because no matter how hard you try some dude will think that in his case its okay even if its totally wrong at all levels someone is gonna do it anyhow ..

it started with the 10 commandments and kinda ballooned from there..

queue the word "copyright"

Anyhow my stuff is down you convinced me to take it down. I forgot about the fact that people just try not to do things because its plain wrong.

I am not perfect, but I do try to do the right thing.

As for digimania well I wish them luck but its quite clear that by allowing this to happen and from the way this thread has gone that creators have to watch this place like a hawk cause no one will respect their wishes. Only worry about "the law" and someone calling the cops

translation "its okay as long as you dont get caught"

yeah right!


there is only one discussion its only people who want to try to seperate the two that thinks there are two.
edited by urbanlamb on 18/11/2016
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