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05/07/2016 02:18:58

primaveranz
primaveranz
Posts: 524
Milkshape is awesome, but it is no longer in development and the FBX format it exports is ancient . I have been unable to export textured models from it that contain built-in transparencies (e.g. a transparent window in a frame). You can convert the FBX using the Autodesk converter but it doesn't cure the problem. Somehow the materials become detached from the model on export, so inside Muvizu it only offers you the option to apply a colour not a texture.
ASE is OK as long as you want something that is entirely opaque or entirely transparent, you can't have "windows".
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05/07/2016 13:38:09

PatMarrNCMuvizu mogul
PatMarrNC
Posts: 1742
clayster2012 wrote:
Lol..ok well milkshape has a free trial, I think 17 days, I would try it first to see if you would be at ease with it, but it isn't very hard to learn, when I get time I'll throw a few tuts at yaw, just got to decide what kind to start with first.


oh.. I thought it was free. If it has a price tag AND its no longer supported, I don't want to pay for a whole new learning curve. So go with whatever software works for Rocque
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05/07/2016 16:22:26

clayster2012Muvizu mogul
clayster2012
Posts: 651
PatMarrNC wrote:
clayster2012 wrote:
Lol..ok well milkshape has a free trial, I think 17 days, I would try it first to see if you would be at ease with it, but it isn't very hard to learn, when I get time I'll throw a few tuts at yaw, just got to decide what kind to start with first.


oh.. I thought it was free. If it has a price tag AND its no longer supported, I don't want to pay for a whole new learning curve. So go with whatever software works for Rocque



I bought milkshape about two years ago, I went to the website, I didn't see any news about not being developed any more,yes it's been a long time since the site was updated, registrations is still being sold at $35 or EUR 25 as for as I see, but no news of any about no longer
being developed, I emailed the creator to see whats going on, I'm waiting on the the reply
edited by clayster2012 on 05/07/2016
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05/07/2016 18:13:22

PatMarrNCMuvizu mogul
PatMarrNC
Posts: 1742
oh, $35 ain't exactly free, but for a reasonably powerful modelling package that save as ASE that's a very reasonable price
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05/07/2016 19:47:44

primaveranz
primaveranz
Posts: 524
There is also Misfit Model 3D, it is free and similar in many ways to Milkshape. Some people prefer it; I find the UI a bit lacking. However is is very capable but I think the only file format of interest Muvizu is concerned is .OBJ
Like Milkshape it has not been updated since about 2011.
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05/07/2016 20:47:19

clayster2012Muvizu mogul
clayster2012
Posts: 651
primaveranz wrote:
There is also Misfit Model 3D, it is free and similar in many ways to Milkshape. Some people prefer it; I find the UI a bit lacking. However is is very capable but I think the only file format of interest Muvizu is concerned is .OBJ
Like Milkshape it has not been updated since about 2011.


yes I have tried this a long time ago way before i bought Milkshape, I could never get it to fit my needs, but it is free, the only limitation that keeps it really useful for muvizuers is not having fbx, ase exporters, yea you could find a good exporter like Autodesk Fbx converter, but you will still need ase expoter.
edited by clayster2012 on 05/07/2016
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06/07/2016 13:24:45

clayster2012Muvizu mogul
clayster2012
Posts: 651
I finally got a reply from the creator of milkshape, it seems his job has been keeping him tide from having alot of time to work on milkshape, but he's planning on a vacation to finish the updates that he never got to release yet, he also told me that milkshape is still under development and the fbx exporter will have new updates as soon as he gets the time to add them
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06/07/2016 13:25:58

clayster2012Muvizu mogul
clayster2012
Posts: 651
So milkshape is still alive
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06/07/2016 15:30:33

PatMarrNCMuvizu mogul
PatMarrNC
Posts: 1742
clayster2012 wrote:
I finally got a reply from the creator of milkshape, it seems his job has been keeping him tide from having alot of time to work on milkshape, but he's planning on a vacation to finish the updates that he never got to release yet, he also told me that milkshape is still under development and the fbx exporter will have new updates as soon as he gets the time to add them


awesome... maybe I need to give it a try. I downloaded it months ago and never installed it due to learning curve overload (which is still a problem)... but if it ends up with functional ASE and FBX export, it could become the modelling solution of choice for Muvizu users. And at $35 it's even priced like Muvizu...
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07/07/2016 01:29:43

clayster2012Muvizu mogul
clayster2012
Posts: 651
PatMarrNC wrote:
clayster2012 wrote:
I finally got a reply from the creator of milkshape, it seems his job has been keeping him tide from having alot of time to work on milkshape, but he's planning on a vacation to finish the updates that he never got to release yet, he also told me that milkshape is still under development and the fbx exporter will have new updates as soon as he gets the time to add them


awesome... maybe I need to give it a try. I downloaded it months ago and never installed it due to learning curve overload (which is still a problem)... but if it ends up with functional ASE and FBX export, it could become the modelling solution of choice for Muvizu users. And at $35 it's even priced like Muvizu...



I have version 1.8.5, and it dose have a full functional ASE that can export with textures, this is what I been using for most of everything I been putting in muvizu, I made all of the star wars characters using ASE export in milkshape, now the FBX export is the one he is still working on, although it dose export the files without any problems, but still don't have the function to export with textures.
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07/07/2016 01:35:58

primaveranz
primaveranz
Posts: 524
Yeah if ASE could handle transparencies and opaque materials in the same model it would be fine, but I guess we have to wait for the FBX fix. There is a really good (and cheap) electronic manual called "Hands on Milkshape" that I bought from http://www.milkshape3d.com/ several years ago, really gets you going quickly.
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07/07/2016 03:03:37

clayster2012Muvizu mogul
clayster2012
Posts: 651
primaveranz wrote:
Yeah if ASE could handle transparencies and opaque materials in the same model it would be fine, but I guess we have to wait for the FBX fix. There is a really good (and cheap) electronic manual called "Hands on Milkshape" that I bought from http://www.milkshape3d.com/ several years ago, really gets you going quickly.




Transparencies,you mean sort of like this, I made a quick cylinder shape in milkshape then used paint.net to make a red texture, cut off two ends using the wand, then added it to texture the cylinder, so one side would be transparent, imported the ase to muvizu using the Opacity selected in the Map alpha to tab, and use ID textures in the ID textures tab, also imported the same Cylinder using the same texture, but didn't use Opacity in the map Alpha to tab, not sure if this is what your talking about, but Milkshape did the job on transparency.
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07/07/2016 09:00:29

primaveranz
primaveranz
Posts: 524
That certainy looks hopeful, but my proper had several groups some opaque and one transparent. I tried using separate materials for the groups and then merging them all in to a single group before exporting to ASE. I also tried a single material with transparent parts and merging, And in both cases I tried "use ID textures" and "don't use" but when I get it into Muvizu it is either partially transparent all over or not at all, and I can only apply a colour not a material in game. Will try again later but I can't think of another variation of choices to use.
Cheers.
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07/07/2016 13:27:05

urbanlamb
urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1796
you need to create a texture with an opacity mask if you use ASE you can only control transparency via a texture and opacity mask (define the alpha in a layer such as you would find in TGA textures)

If you use fbx you can control transparency via the material layers and use semi transparent textures with no mask because the transparency control ability is part of the material so you can increase/decreate transparency inside muvizu because fbx takes advantage of material settings if you export them with the object you created.

ASE ignores all that so your stuck using the texture and masking to define transparency. Then you have to deal with something called alpha sorting as a result.
edited by urbanlamb on 07/07/2016
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07/07/2016 13:32:51

PatMarrNCMuvizu mogul
PatMarrNC
Posts: 1742
My experience has been the same as Primaveranz when trying to make partially transparent ASE textures. (in Sketchup,not Milkshape). I've tried all the Import settings without ever finding a satisfactory solution

(Satisfactory = part of the object has a completely opaque texture, and part is maybe 30% opaque, like glass)

In all my experiments, I can get the 30% transparent part right... and from certain views the opaque part also looks right... but when I rotate the object and view it from a variety of different angles, there are always ghost-shaded surfaces where I want 100% opacity.

closest I've been able to get is to create an opaque car, and save it as ASE, adding 4 small collision cubes at the base of each tire so the car doesn't sink into the ground... this also serves to remove collision from the area where the windshield will fit later.

Then create a semi transparent windshield at the same coordinates where the windshield would be in the car's coordinate system... and again, save as ASE with a small collision cube somewhere near the top of the windshield. This keeps the two ASE objects from repelling one another when you join them together.

Load both objects into muvizu, and if they fit together in the designing coordinate system, they should come into Muvizu with the same relationship. (if not, manually move the windshield to wherever you want it). Highlight both objects and GROUP them together. Now you have what looks like a solid object, but it is actually 2 separate objects grouped together
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07/07/2016 13:34:29

urbanlamb
urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1796
look at my trees in the gallery they are using transparency in the form of a mask built into the alpha layer and are ASE.

http://muvizu.com/3D/22911/Maple-Tree

http://muvizu.com/3D/32746/Pine-Trees

http://muvizu.com/3D/23066/Joshua-Tree

In fact the only way you can make something like that in Muvizu is to use ASE which is kinda ironic, but unreal engine has its own system for making vegetation so that is why their FBX is the way it is and your stuck falling back on ASE.
edited by urbanlamb on 07/07/2016
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07/07/2016 14:26:25

clayster2012Muvizu mogul
clayster2012
Posts: 651
primaveranz wrote:
That certainy looks hopeful, but my proper had several groups some opaque and one transparent. I tried using separate materials for the groups and then merging them all in to a single group before exporting to ASE. I also tried a single material with transparent parts and merging, And in both cases I tried "use ID textures" and "don't use" but when I get it into Muvizu it is either partially transparent all over or not at all, and I can only apply a colour not a material in game. Will try again later but I can't think of another variation of choices to use.
Cheers.



Well Im trying different ways to get it to work the way I wanted, and I did the separate materials and merging them as a singel group to, and got the effect of the texture mixed all together on the whole model, in finger pistols Im trying to make a mug full of beer for the saloon scene, I tried numerous way to get the transparent to work, so what I did was in paint. net I used layers, and and put transparent on the layers that needed it, the flatten the image to one image again, then used it as the texture for the beer, and this is my end results.


still not what Im looking for though.
edited by clayster2012 on 07/07/2016
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07/07/2016 14:51:17

urbanlamb
urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1796
if your using one texture/material your going to run into alpha sorting for an object like that. You might get rid of it if you use double sided for the glass and single sided for the liquid. This is a visual bug that is present in a lot of older stuff (a reason why fbx became popular it was designed to get rid of this problem).

separate the textures and materials as well two textures/two materials, no alpha mask, fbx.

Its a proximity issue the graphics card doesnt know which to display so it just well does that.
edited by urbanlamb on 07/07/2016
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07/07/2016 15:02:40

PatMarrNCMuvizu mogul
PatMarrNC
Posts: 1742
Urban Lamb,
thanks for weighing in on this... the forum is a poorer place in your absence! Your contributions to the forum's modelling knowledge have added a lot of value, and I hope that continues

And yeah, your trees are awesome! I use them all the time! Thanks for all past and future uses!

The ASE transparency (using opaque mask) works for the trees because the area between the leaves is 100% clear, which is necessary for that look. Apparently "use Opage Mask" forces the transparency to 100% whether or not the original texture was 100% transparent. Same problem with applying transparent textures to the Muvizu primitives... they always apply at 100% transparency, which tells me they're using opacity mask for texturing the primitives

Until I have time to explore the power of Blender, I'm stuck with using ASE for my transparency. I can get the effect I want using the approach detailed in my last post... it just takes a little more time.

Too bad that Autodesk's FBX converter doesn't offer any controls to help with transparency.
edited by PatMarrNC on 07/07/2016
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07/07/2016 15:21:12

urbanlamb
urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1796
i have windows that are ase that are not perfectly clear. Opacity masks are basically greyscales so if its grey its semi transparent so if that is what your after make the alpha layer semi transparent (this would translate to grey in the alpha channel and not black)

So you can make something foggy a bit and then make the foggy greyish .. you would need to fart around with it, but it is possible. The only real texture type I have been successful with this is the TGA format because the alpha layer is so easy to define png etc its not really that possible I have found.

TGA is not very popular because its a bit more complicated easier to just define semi transparent and go like in a png.


http://muvizu.com/3D/21842/windows-with-transparency

The cloudy parts on this window are a graded alpha mask white->grey->black with some blurring in there.

And your welcome this particular subject I dont think has come up before I dont think not like this. Anyhow yeah i have done all this inside muvizu its possible just you know "need to know how"
edited by urbanlamb on 07/07/2016
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